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Familiarize yourself with Mormon scripture, please

August 7, 2009

It never ceases to amaze me how certain critics of Mormonism will not even do the basic research. They will levy all sorts of criticisms against the church based on what “Mormon scripture” says, but then, they will show an utter ignorance of what Mormon scripture is or what it actually says.

The LDS Quad, all in one scripture set

The LDS Quad, all in one scripture set

So, for everyone’s viewing pleasure, I will list the Mormon scriptures:

  1. The Holy Bible, containing the Old and New Testaments. King James Version. If you use KJV, I dare you to compare. The LDS have, cross-references, Bible Dictionary, Topical Guide & maps.
  2. The Book of Mormon, Another Testament of Jesus Christ.
  3. The Doctrine and Covenants of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
  4. The Pearl of Great Price.

Why the need to expound this information?

Because people often shoot without aiming.

I visited a site the other day…a charming site with an article entitled Dear Mormon Children. Wherein the author asserts that he was confused when reading “Mormon scriptures,” but God is not the author of confusion. He takes aim at progression (becoming like God), and asserts that this is the “ultimate Satanic sin.”

He then points out “Mormon scripture” that presumably he finds to be offensive to God’s truth. What scriptures does he use? I might have anticipated the PoGP maybe…or maybe a few of the Doctrine and Covenants? It’s unlikely that he would’ve found much incriminating in the Book of Mormon though.

But no, he doesn’t use any of these! He uses Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith and the Journal of Discourses. So here, we have two sources that, although extant, do not represent authoritative Mormon scripture in any sense of the word. And that is what he bases everything off of.

He then points out Biblical scripture (all of which are noncontroversial King James Version scriptures accepted by Mormons). I would’ve perhaps expected him to pull out some Joseph Smith Translation stuff, but…nope. In the end, from the Bible, he points out stuff that no Mormon would disagree with. Worship does belong only to Jesus Christ in Mormonism…so what’s the problem?

Fortunately, a commenter then swoops in and discusses how exaltation isn’t even all that weird when compared to traditional concepts like theosis (which, when described by Athanasius as “God became man so that man might become God,” sounds more like Mormons should be indicted for plagiarism rather than blasphemy.) So commenter Alma asks Loose Associations to simply read up.

…but then Loose Associations simply says: “Sorry. I’ve done enough “research” into satanism to last several lifetimes. I’m not masochistic. It’s not healthy.”

…so is his only rebuttal to suggest that Mormonism (and also Eastern Orthodoxy, apparently) is Satanist. Not to mention real-life Satanism is way less exciting than it sounds.

I mean, seriously guys. Seriously.

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14 Comments
  1. Pretty silly stuff. I’m convinced that at least half the people on the Internet are stupid or crazy (or both).

  2. I think it’s also worth pointing out that Mormons use the Protestant version of the Bible and reject the deuterocanonical books, unlike the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches. Way to accept the authority of the priesthood of believers, Mormons.

    /flex

  3. I got a great and hearty chuckle from that, Jack.

  4. Bridget,

    True, but they also use the Byzantine Text for the Protestant Canon that they do accept and use. A double irony.

  5. looseassociations permalink

    You ask me to “familiarize myself with Mormon scripture,” but if you ate a little piece of poop and I told you to keep eating, I don’t suppose you would. Have you waded through the entire Koran/Qu’ran? I couldn’t make it through that either. I’m averse to things that I don’t have an appetite for.

    Indeed, I quoted Joseph Fielding Smith and Brigham Young. If these prophets were incapable of producing scripture that “represent[s] authoritative Mormon scripture in any sense of the word,” then what kind of Mormon are you?

  6. looseassociations:

    You don’t quite get what I’m saying here.

    If I had produced a little piece of poop, you should be able to identify that piece of poop if you wanted to challenge it. If you didn’t want to challenge it, then fine…don’t continue (or even start!) eating it. If you want to simply assert that you don’t have an appetite for it…fine, don’t eat it…that’s not the same thing as challenging it, however. The different actions have different responsibilities, but on the other hand, they have different impacts too.

    You would most certainly not want to be caught with your pants down trying to pin someone else’s bullcrap as my little piece of poop. Because I would simply dismiss all of your claims, pointing out how the bull crap is clearly not the little piece of poop that *I* produced. And how you don’t know what you’re talking about.

    So, even if I am producing veritable poop, if you delegitimize yourself through a silly error of mis-attribution, then you become ineffective at pointing out poop for what it is.

    So, if we take something like the Quran…what I’m saying is…if you want to CHALLENGE the Quran, YES, you must be familiar with it. OR you will make a fool of yourself.

    If you don’t want to challenge it but simply want to say that you are not appealed by it, that you are not convinced by it, that you are not interested in it, go ahead…but this is something that is at a different standard anyway.

    If you’re going to challenge The Book of Mormon (and other scriptures), then you have to know not what Joseph Fielding Smitih or Brigham Young says…but what The Book of Mormon (and other scriptures) says. In the same way, if you want to challenge the Quran, then you have to know what the Quran says instead of what x or y imam says. Because while prophets may be incredibly influential people, to mis-attribute what they say to what authoritative scripture is simply shows that you can’t tell bullshit from chicken shit from human shit!

    (Note: you can also challenge organizations and the leaders themselves or whatever else. The issue is you risk mis-attributing if you don’t know the authoritative scriptures and you are loose with words.)

  7. looseassociations permalink

    ok, so you’re asking me to discern whether the BOM is bullsh1t, chicken sh1t, or human sh1t? no thanks. i’ll stick with the pure waters.
    “prophets”? i was told by mormons that joseph smith junior WAS a prophet, and the founder, AND wrote the translation of the copper plates that were conveniently swept away by angels. (why didn’t they sweep away his translation as well if they so overtly ruined his credibility?). i read bits of the BOM as well. your prophets don’t make quite as sickening of statements in that book, that i could find, i’ll grant you that. but i can’t find it anymore, coz i burned that copy of the BOM. our thrift store sells them for $1, so they’re purchased to be burned.
    “out of the abundance of the heart, the heart speaketh.” more poop from a mormon showing me that i don’t want any more. why would i “challenge” something that stinks and the little bits of the books that i read made me ill? i spent three nights talking to three mormons (the usual set of “two” required extra help from a brainy local once they realized that i read my Bible). that’s enough french immersion for me to decide i don’t want to learn french, so drop it! you’re not going to “convert” me any more than a JW is. i’ve got the sweet and the good; i’m a desperate needy man, and i’m in the hands of a Savior and at the table of a King where i eat like a prince who never deserved it. no thank you, sir.
    by “familiarize” you suggest that i must read the entire book(s) [including the ones you say don’t kinda really have much authority???]. i think i could make it thru a. crowley’s satanic “book of the law” much faster, because it’s a lot shorter. but the first few pages reveal that it’s about selfishness and not about God’s glory, so why do i need to “challenge” the rest of it to avoid “making a fool of myself.”
    these young mormons, every time they couldn’t answer a question, they said, “we don’t have the authority to answer that.” well then they don’t have the authority to understand God’s word and God’s truth, and they’ll have no part in it, lest God show mercy, and i can pray that.
    joseph smith had his lovely encounter with the bright figures because he was so arminianly concerned about fixing the problem of “too many sects” for God… how then, did “God” fail in this mission, seeing that there are 500+ offshoots of mormonism? the more scripturally-correct mormons are the polygamists we have here in northern BC and some other places, following the examples of their prophets and leaders, and you mainstream ones act like you’re the righteous ones?
    my memory is rusty; are you tempting me to pull out my essay on mormonism to show the places where BOM contradicts KJV? these young ones told me that prophets can make mistakes while they’re writing scripture. how can something be “authoritative” yet “fallible” at the same time? was Isaiah making mistakes like joseph smith, or is all scripture inspired by God (as your KJV states) and infallible?
    wow, they didn’t give me a chance to “challenge” their book– they were having a baptism that saturday and were scheduling me in to be baptized by “those with the rightful authority,” and i would be assured enough if i read their pamphlet and prayed about whether it was true or not.
    i guess those were false mormons (which i’m sure there are)… it might have been more profitable all around if it were you visiting with me. but it wasn’t. and now you might have a greater duty to admonish the messed-up among you instead of preaching to someone with eyes.
    sorry for not proof-reading. and i’ll likely not reply. you remind me of how satan uses atheists– constantly nagging at me to waste my time. i have Someone to obey.

  8. If you’re disinterested in the Book of Mormon, then that’s one thing. Then you don’t have to distinguish it as anything. You simply state that you are unconvinced and unpersuaded.

    …But be aware, as I’m trying to say, that being unconvinced and unpersuaded is a completely different thing than challenging. If you’re going to challenge the Book of Mormon — liken it to poop, show the contradictions, show the disagreements, or whatever — then you do need to know what you’re talking about. You *do* need to know your excrements, your sacraments, and the difference between the two. You need to know, quite simply, what you’re dealing with.

    If you don’t want to learn French, then don’t. But when you decide not to, you show yourself to be uninformed and ignorant if you try to speak out against French to people who know what they are talking about. When you decide not to, if you pretend to be informed on the subject, then you will only serve to further destroy your credibility, expose yourself as a troll, or label your cause as the patron cause of trolling.

    Is that what you want to do? Do you want to evangelize your religion as trolling? Do you want to show people the error of their ways, or do you want to further convince those people that it is you who is in error? Depending on which goal you want, you may want to reevaluate your course of action.

    I mean, really, the choice is up to you…

    The way you’ve responded to this article is really most exemplary of the idea I’m talking about. You haven’t done the basic research…and you aren’t even on the same level of communication and conversation. You are so off-track, so off-balance, so out-of-bounds, yet you feel so comfortable in your waywardness. So secure, so self-justified. It’s quite frankly amusing, and although I would hope that you would see it soon, I guess I can’t say I have a horse in this race. If you continue to do such gross injustice to your cause, this is no skin of my nose, as they say…

    LOL, I’m sorry then that I was so much your master that I was about to “nag at [you] to waste your time.” But please remember…you wrote your comments here on your own volition. No one and nothing compelled you. So perhaps you should evaluate who exactly you’re obeying?

  9. looseassociations permalink

    “i wrote my comments here on my own volition” because you posted an article linking to my article and responding to it.
    yep, i’m out of bounds in your dark world. i’ve also neglected to do the basic research on strip clubs, wife beating, and substance abuse. so i am definitely off-track.
    “the choice is up to me”? that’s the arminian/pelagian lie that strangely resembles the secular theology of “follow your heart.”
    i did not choose my human father. he chose me. he speaks english, so i learned english.
    my heavenly Father adopted me, and He speaks the truth. “i once was blind, but now i see.” He has taught me His language. you are correct, i can’t say anything to the french about the french. frankly the light doesn’t understand the darkness any much better than the darkness understands the light. if you move to holland and speak dutch for 40 years, you start to forget your german, notably when you aren’t hanging around with any germans anymore.
    i recognize your “it’s up to me” lie. i grew up in that slavery. if paul apostle said that in his human flesh there was NO good thing; and my experience testifies the same about what’s in my human flesh; if God’s grace depends on the “goodness” in someone who HATES Him, then will God’s grace ever been seen? it won’t. He has mercy on whom He will. He hardened pharoah’s heart. once you have received God’s grace poured on you when you utterly did not deserve it nor make the right choices, THEN you are inclined to give Him all the credit and glory, which is really what it’s all about. it’s about Him.
    self-justified? HUH!? i’m a complete wretch! i’m all evil inside, and who shall save me from this body of death? i thank God for Jesus Christ! He is in me, and i am counted as righteous because of His works. does that sound like “self-justified”? you’re the one talking about “making the right choice”! are you a righteous one, who made the right choice? i was a demon and God pulled me out of the muck. i only know love to a degree because of love that was shown to me. the very One i trampled picked me up and washed MY face clean.

  10. I posted an article linking to your article and responding it in the hopes that you would learn something. *Anything*.

    I am uncertain of if you have. You don’t even get the point, really, which is continually indicated by your comments here. And yes, it is your choice to change what you will do. Just because you believe it is a lie doesn’t make it any less true.

    Still, again, the choice really is yours. The real issue is that ou have made your decision and I have up until now failed to realize it. You will continue about your way, blind to your blindness, deaf to your deafness. Because anything else, as you say, is a lie, and you won’t have any of that.

  11. looseassociations permalink

    I don’t suppose either of us is as familiar with what each other is familiar with, by definition. So we could equally argue that the other ought to learn what we’ve learned. I’m sure we could agree that the good Lord leads us all through what He will lead us through.
    There’s lots of things that I’m not familiar with. Even something obscure, like some tribal culture’s religion, isn’t necessarily less worthy of study than something more mainstream.
    We really aren’t able to face the “big questions” in life by researching every ideology or religion that has passed through– not one person has ever achieved this.
    I can’t complete an exhaustive understanding or study of the Bible in my lifetime… but I know one thing, it’s the only book I love to read.
    Kind regards.

  12. That is, if we are trying to challenge, then we definitely must strive to learn.

    If we are not trying to challenge, then we have no such burden. You don’t challenge a tribal culture’s religion. You simply are unpersuaded by it. There is a world of difference between the two.

  13. looseassociations permalink

    You are correct. And everybody everywhere is unpersuaded by certain things; challenges certain this (I think you mean, they take the time to research and discern it); and thirdly, there are many things that each of us aren’t even aware of. We are exposed to various ideologies throughout our life.
    I’ve noticed one pattern in ideologies: every single one [that i’ve found so far, including arminian “christianity”] assumes at least SOME goodness can originate from the human heart.
    only the “calvinist” Christian makes the scriptural stance that man is utterly depraved and fallen, and is therefore in desperate need of a Savior. not a partial salvation, but a complete and undeserved salvation.
    “self-confidence” has led to nothing good in my life. studies show that confidence is healthy for kids; but i’m striving to teach my kids to be confident in God, and “lean not on their own understanding.”
    Take care.

  14. Shane permalink

    Sorry. Andrew wins by sheer logic, patience, and a general more Christ-like attitude. Sorry looseassociations, but you sound bitter, angry, and dissuaded to the point where you spend all your time attacking other religions. If you could just stick to your own and be considerate of other religions and not call their scriptures “poop” then you might be at least as good as most Mormons, since they specifically emphasize not persecuting other religions.

    Bottom line, you’re filled with hate and that is sad.

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